These working meeting notes taken at the Cliff Bay Community Town Hall, are a summary and are intended to share the substance of the discussion – key questions, comments, and responses. They are not a verbatim transcript or official record. Every effort has been made to ensure accuracy.
July 14 – Cliff Bay Meeting notes
Matt:
Need to leave with some action items. One word: horrified, disgusted, mad, outraged, betrayed.
30 years vacant. Locals were frustrated. There is no excuse to think a developer can bypass local decision making processes.
Not saying no to development – with public land requires public input. This is about fairness. The acronym MZO Ministerial Zoning Order. We need to be clear on how abusive this can be.
This is about you sharing comments and questions so we can continue to go forth.
Mike:
This can’t be real. Really? On Lake Muskoka, part of the condition of sale there would have to be a MZO .
Comes from MA&H, to override local plans. 25/year this government. Prior to 2018 about 1/year. Guelph example…
It’s clear a proper process hasn’t happened. Local democracy matters. It is clearly to benefit a corporation at our expense. This kind of tool should not be used like this in a democracy.
We want to hear from you;
Debbie Vernon Bracebridge: the bigger picture, the District Chair of Muskoka being assigned as opposed to being elected. With the MZO seems like appointed chair will have same override powers. Am I correct this will happen.
Answer: yes, strong mayor/chair powers job is to push provincial wants on local communities, not in the community interest. This was supposed to be addressing housing crisis, Strong mayors have not worked. Some have used powers to stop housing. Is a real threat, the tool is increasingly used to support other types of development. Going to impose provincial rules, even against province’s own rules.
Jim Davis, silver lakes CA, MLA – is a real estate play disguised as a resort is a real estate play, vast majority are going to be condos and be a real threat. Would you help organize an advocacy Day at QP?
Answer: Yes, would be happy to help organize. Have permission to come to QP in a space for media time. An MPP has to sponsor, will talk to other parties to help as well. Will introduce you to the legislature, if you do a petition, will read that as well. Need a MPP to sponsor the media studio to talk about it and better inform. MPPs are on an extended holiday to end of October. If we need to do things ahead of October
Melaga Redley – family over 50 years /40 at Cliff Bay. Assessment was conducted previously would it support a development answer was no, it’s a small lake/bay. How can they even consider the mammoth proposal? Mr Ford has no idea what the Muskoka experience is like, The Wenonah with a band, is noise everywhere, 3 large venues proposed would be noise and light pollution.
Answer: The developer knows it’s irresponsible, which is why they positioned the MZO conditions. Toured the bay
Steven Levigne: can you discuss in detail and specifics why not ONE councillor is here (there is one).
Answer: fair and disappointing, we put out a public invitation, they are on the mailing list. Clearly candidates fear (speculating) we are doing a disservice to the upcoming election. We are people powered, invites and creates the dialogue.
Kimberly *last name missed* recent move. No intention of leaving Muskoka, lifestyle is important, need to speak about the infrastructure. Need to address safety on the lake because it is small with increased inexperienced boaters. The marina will add more, what can we do re boater safety?
Answer: Is this a real estate play, there will be an increase of inexperienced boaters. Most important, put pressure on Minister and MPP to say no. at the very least there should be very strict conditions, there are a host of issues, they can be put on an MZO
Tina Kilborne: 1000s of people in and out of one residential road = big safety concern
Penny Varney ward 1; agree with everything, developer called each councillor, she is against, need to respect lake environments, will join in QP day. Our hands are tied as land is owned by Ont govt, had hoped for jobs for locals. Had hoped for a public beach. What everyone is saying is positive need to go ahead and fight.
Answer: in defence of local = are extraordinary powers that Minister and Premier are given
Bonnie Duits; have longer term concerns re development for other places on the lakes, selling off of lake bed, broader, taking public access away, what does it mean about the next lake the next development. There are places where they have been sold off would like to learn more as there are concerns beyond this.
Answer: re building on lake bed, is a HUGE issue, can fish off your lake bed legally, what does it mean when structures are built over the lake, who owns that, what precedent does that set.
Gary Stevenson: resident since 1975, started developing land at the bay – Steamship area. Proceeded because there were so many involved. The developer was the only one who changed from single story, parking behind the buildings, walkways are not on the waterfront. Everything reversed. Developer changed everything. Ate us and partners alive. Couldn’t do anything after the ok was given. Agree with Mike, every piece has been a battle. Tree cutting. These were baby steps compared to this.
Answer: that’s why they want a MZO
Debbie Shrod – 3 driveways from the property, if filled 8000 people is more than Gravenhurst population, the infrastructure is going to be enormous and disruptive, noise, boats, come April how many will be underwater. What I don’t understand is how there is so little information about the proponent or what he has developed. Asbestos and mold in existing building, trees to be cut. We will lose everything we have.
Answer: this is why the rules matter, why we have planning laws, why we have regulations. When govt takes short cuts, bad things happen. Mike can’t get a FOI request! Is harder as an MPP to find how these decisions are made
David Kellam Running for council, on the lake since 1967 at the narrows. The bay has to be saved at all costs contact your local MPPs at home as well. There is no excuse, we need to have proper development, let’s get in front of govt
Answer: Hopeful? Duffins Creek Wetlands, MZO a people powered movement started. It turns out it was another Amazon warehouse. It took signs, door knocking, it is possible. When Greenbelt was to be opened it took a year, we can’t keep up. It is possible to win but it takes work, others live elsewhere are asking how? There will be support because it’s precedent setting
Christian McEachren Bracebridge = how big is the gap between regulation and what is proposed? Will they continue, or will developers walk out of it?
Answer: local bylaws as well as Official Plans and provincial policy. Why would they consider MZO as a condition of sale? Gravenhurst one of 26 municipalities, Ask your locals to ensure that they are being proactive in advance of municipal elections. On behalf of all others, this could be a domino effect, can open flood gates through the riding and all of Ontario. Are public lands and this paves the way for chaos
Christine Virgin – resident, Assault on democracy in unprecedented way, mass of influx of people with no commitment to the community. Boating safety worries, find it rich that so many government bodies make a land acknowledgment before making decisions like this this is not progressive. Can’t look our grandchildren in the eye unless we do everything we can.
Burkhard Mausberg (President of Small Change Fund) – Huntsville – some honey questions for the MZO can the municipality disagree to issue the MZO? Can we organize real-estate agents to not take this on for selling anything within the development.
Answer: council does have some tools, rhetorically, would be interested in organizing the relators, (** relator input if developer can’t find local support they quite often go to Toronto to get agents) Will have in house. *real estate agent (Debbie Vernon) suggests looking into the original deed, as donated to the hospital, could be a deed that it be returned back to the family, or have conditions.***
Norman Yan – paddled lots, was told that water quality. Is it true that water quality issues are completely irrelevant to this government. One of foremost aquatic scientists in the area.
Answer: almost every decision by current provincial government has weakened water protection. Not…
Tom Irvine – 1975 resident – fine print in this issue. Ford govt have lost touch with what Muskoka is about. What is Muskoka, this piece of land is pines, granite, lake. Somehow the govt need to talk to us about what is important to those who live and come here. Someone is making a disastrous decision, video is a betrayal. Should never happen.
Answer: (Matt) you have to show up. Here we are, if Graydon had shown up he would have to go forward. We are being over shadowed, Ontario is letting our own business slide.
Anita Stevenson, Muskoka Road N. – a past police shooting one road in one out, is a disaster, not accessible, no one will go all the way around.
Answer: that’s why planning matters. Clearing the deck for development thoughtful planning is lost
Diane (?) = what about solid waste? We’re already having trouble with waste. Biggest fear when writing to MPP doesn’t get answers, gets placating statements. How are we going to get them to wake up. How do we get Graydon on our side?
Answer: one, tonight is a good start with this many people out. Save the Bay, take a sign and put it up. When Mike sees signs it is a never ending reminder of the issue, are very powerful, Write to Minister, MPP, councillors. The more you can have an MPP have a bit of pain it moves things. Getting up and saying we are taking heat in our riding is another pressure point. Is not one item but lots of work to turn things around. Small Change Fund to raise money, raise some funds, lawyers. Mike is a tiny part but has a microphone at QP. It’s unimaginable to people. Don’t stop
Sue McKenzie – Climate Action – a member at a BBQ – Graydon has voted for everything that Ford has put forward. At the BBQ was told that the MZO has not been approved. Is difficult to speak to him, form letters, gets personal invitations to bbqs – One low key way is to show up at the bbq and express disagreement. Is asbestos in the buildings, from personal experiences,
Answer: thanks for sharing
Camaride(?) Gravenhurst. – are indigenous lands, where are those voices in this?
Answer: Mike has started putting out requests. Mississaugas of Scugog were instrumental with Dufferin lands. Participation is going to be critically important
Julie Alexander – where can I get a save the Bay sign.
Answer: here. Thanks to the group who have started the sign campaign. Savethebay.ca explains the whole proposal. help@savethebay.ca
Second question: emergency services (new resident) reach out to policing services board, email to put the development on the agenda.
Second question Muskoka Lakes Association; donate to this campaign specifically.
Gary Brown * past pres Muskoka Property owners Assn – 28 years almost identical proposal, mayor and developer said there was nothing to be done. Was push back, worked in Toronto with media, premiers office, Munic affairs 1,200 names on petition via NDP. We have done it before. No to the development. No compromise.
Answer:
Liz Sandals, lobbying MPPs are not going to be in Toronto, this is urgent, need to get to them before the MZO gets signed. The MLA have a big mailing list, it is not just about Graydon, he is not leading the charge, need to get to MPPs, not just a form letter. Call constituency offices and ask for an appointment. Make the MPP care that this could screw you in their riding.
Answer: with Greenbelt was not necessarily MPPs from GB ridings.
Repeat speaker – put Save the Bay signs near Ford cottage. Not going to vote Conservative again.
Answer: constituency offices are fair game. Reluctant to go to residences, suggest keeping personal distance.
Mary Lou Roberts 65-70 years in the area. What does the council think about the project ** has not been a comment from council yet, need to do a full court press – have no ideas about the company’s $ – **a number of people looking to finding out about the company, crypto currency company. Name one project, was unable and unwilling to name one. # two person is in the condo business with lots of actions against him. Part of the MZO is to separate into 11 properties, sell off the lots. Every major project in Muskoka like this has failed. Asked council to put stakes in the ground, council refused.
Answer: this is election season, ask everyone who is running what their position is. The province did say they would not issue MZO without municipal approval but then backtracked.
Sue McKenzie (again) – international hotel market connections, is a move afoot for companies to buy all the waterfront they can in Muskoka
Answer: is not unprecedented for current government to do big deals with companies in big financial difficulties. Conversation with one other opposition leader already. You can stop this. It will take work, government needs to feel the pressure from others too. Off to a great start. Need to move quickly.